Archive for CANCER PAIN

13 Oct 2013

Posted in Uncategorized with tags , , , , on October 13, 2013 by spinoza1111

First-thing workout at 6:04: 20 minutes included 150 supine movements with weights, walking, 100 midrise steps (steps in stairwell, not lowrise steps in ward), and 50 slow dancing with walking stick (the old soft shoe: acceptable pain accompanied this return to the OSS.)

Notes on  a Pain Episode

For unknown reason, on the last few weekends, especially Sundays, I have had intense bouts of direct and referred pain; I think it was last Sunday when I first crossed “the screaming barrier”, bothering the other patients.

However, today I was able to endure 10/10+ pain in my butt and was able to practise Acceptance instead of “exclaiming”:  for as Lovel admonishes Hastings i’th’old play (Richard III), “Come, come, dispatch; ’tis bootless to exclaim.”

Notes on the Incomprehensible War

Some heroes included Sgt. “Breathless”. The Kid said, gee, Sarge, it hurts to breathe”. Sgt. Breathless. eyes scanning the dark, said, “so don’t breathe.” So the Kid figured that that meant finding a way to breathe at  a low level, more through his skin almost. So the Kid did this, and survived.

There was also Sgt. Rock who kept firing with his ass shot off. When the position, still held by his men and a dead Sgt. Rock, was relieved, the commander of the relief troops collected his leather belt bitten clean thru because the Sarge was busy killing Cheeseballs whilst in pain. This gruesome artifact hangs today in the Incomprehensible Museum.

Screen Shot 2013-10-13 at 5.00.36 PM


11 Oct 2013

Posted in Uncategorized with tags , , on October 11, 2013 by spinoza1111

20 Minutes first thing (50 midrise steps), 150 warmup movements, with and without weights.

Sunday’s first agon, was the one in which I first crossed the “screaming barrier” where you bother other patients and have “10 over 10” pain, which breaks the measuring device of your own perception and therefore means that the “actual” pain could be higher than 10/10 having such values as 12/10 (with, possibly, part of the pain being caused by not-knowing if Aristotle is right and we long to know), taught me among other things that I may need these lessons at the endgame.

With possibly a lifespan of months and those months spent in increasing unawareness and no more godlike mobility.

Which exacerbates, does not reconcile the need to know. In Sunday’s agon I was still the observer, trying to store up “impressions” for my “journey” like Flashman’s blasted wife Elspeth in Madagascar or Boswell in Scotland…and making  a dog’s dinner of it, scupper my kidneys, else.

Which exacerbates and does not reconcile my need to be with my son and my granddaughters.

The Chorus begins, softly, with quiet cymbals, at first a confusion of voices and instruments later triumphant…

Pace we slow pace we soft
For ’tis known how well and oft
Philosophy comes a cropper at the solemn time of death

Pace we slow pace we soft
For ’tis known how well and oft
That proud man the cynosure of Nature
Is at Nature’s mercy at the limit beyond the Pillars of Hercules

Pace we slow pace we soft
For as Oedip knew so well
There’s none can tell
Whether beyond this life there’s reassurance
For he who has worn life’s many harsh robes of  ‘durance

7 Oct 2013: I get no kick from cocaine?

Posted in Uncategorized with tags , , , , on October 7, 2013 by spinoza1111

No workout at all today for the first no-workout day in months because of last night’s pain which was a multiple of the intensity of the intensity of the night before.  Saturday night’s pain was really bad, and I now know this to be because of my walking workout in which I was secretly and pridefully trying to get back to the Garden (running), for last night’s (Sunday night’s) pain was very intense and easily a ten over ten…perhaps it smashed the barometer.

This was a typical experience in running where when I ignored pain, I’d suffer intensely. The obvious “cure” is not to walk or run at this level of intensity and at this duration at least not for now.

“I bring you suffering: I bring you the release from suffering” – Buddha

The pain was alleviated at last by stilnox and fentanyl which like the smart little guy with the big hammer ten times his size knocked me out. But before that the extraordinary agony (no, don’t italicize it, Chuckles, it ain’t a Greek word) had confronted Saturday night’s prideful claim that I could overcome pain, even tho’ I shied away from that claim, knowing it to be pride, and Pride is “a stick of shitfire with a wick on it”.

But in the agony there was me, a wondering me still, wondering how I could be still there…choral dance in the style of Sophocles:

In the agon there was … me
Dancing amidst the Furies I defied them
But also tempted them to do their worst.
Man proud man must thereby discover his own limits,
For he has said

(Aside, no, “not before he’s dead”, I want no jinglee rhyme this time)

Oh, OK, you can sneak that line in:
But this is noble verse “high and working”, and a combat not of bells,
But of hammers as we strike each other as Hector and Achilles,
Or Palamon and Arcite
In final battle, like the government shutdown.

But my reward for what patience I “shown”, to use the grammar of Pittsburgh Dad who “seen” a tornado in this agon:  was Suffering and then, reciprocal to suffering, this morning’s Buddhist Release from Suffering: “I bring you Suffering” is not just accidentally linked to “I bring you Release”.

It’s a Mystery, as Hemyngs says in “Shakespeare in Love”. Pittsburgh Dad, rather like Homer Simpson, is, qua Dad, the locus of what’s so airily dismissed as patriarchal culture. He seen the storm, he seen Hypolyte being destroyed by the monster I’th’old play (Phèdre). Mother tries to comfort but my Dad told me when I was in the hospital that I needed to be “patient” like a “patient” in a pun of some wisdom tho’ pretty lame.

Since in a chart based on an Excel spreadsheet as a teacher, I discovered some Great Learning as opposed to Trivial Pursuit (“the participle like ‘seen’ or ‘shown’ is always preceded by a helper verb in the ‘have’ family”) I could immediately spot, and more helpfully explain, blunders like that of Pittsburgh Dad. For the student wants Great Learning such as was in my table in which I combined all possibilities of grammar forms in a verb phrase.

I won’t post the table right now because I’m like the mathematician I met at Princeton (damn right I name drop), John Horton Conway who in a seminar at Princeton’s short-lived “John von Neumann Center” (damn right! How do ya like me now!?) Conway said he never liked to search for the paperwork of a proof he’d constructed; it was easier and more fun for him to do the proof again, and, he could spot errors and make improvements! Even as I preferred to rewrite software tools (considered as “lemmas” on the way to a desired theorem) than locate them in a mess or worse use some other person’s idiot idea of the proof unless she was a Knuth, John Nash, Brian Kernighan or Melinda Varian (where Donald Knuth or the three Princeton personalities I mention were excellent sources of software tools and references to tools; John Nash arguably the least “user friendly” but displayed a clear grasp of the notions as early as the early 1950s, which was amazing.)

I have to put the To-Do note “reconstruct and post the verb phrase grammar chart” on top of the wobbly “stacka stuff I gotta do” hopin’ it don’t collapse (to continue, briefly, in “Pittsburgh Dad” style) but trust me I find such activity fun and even analgesic. For “I get no kick in a plane, flying real high with some guy in the sky is my idea of nothing to do”.

13 Sep 2013: workout, pain, Kant study and my need for a citation, and other such crap

Posted in Uncategorized with tags , , , , , , on September 12, 2013 by spinoza1111

20 minute workout first thing: 50 motion warmup without weights and 300 lowrise step aerobics. No physio anticipated because I have to go to Causeway Bay to get a higher magnification in my readers. Running out of commercially available magnifications at 300, do not need this magnification when rested; a midday nap often eliminates the need. Do not look forward to hike to stall/shop near public library, but will check library status if I feel up to it. Need to make an appointment thru my Grantham doctors with an eye doctor.

No need for pain-killah before workout, mild to moderate pain now. This despite the fact that on my request the doctor has reduced the Fentanyl patch dosage to about 2.1 mg per day (6.4 for three days) on my request. I don’t want to be sent let’s say back to Chicago with Fentanyl need, for this will probably be assumed to be an addiction.

But that’s stupid. If I have metastatic pain then won’t I need some form of opioide? Even during the summer of 2012 before my son’s death I was using Tramadol, an opioide, probably just as addictive as Fentanyl, psychologically. Which means that to be close to my son & grandchildren I will have to travel back on the Grantham prescription and get some sort of pain control > Bayer aspirin at the other end. This pain is not my friend.


Reading the Gorgias dialogue of Plato as I read Johansen (History of Ancient Philosophy) on Plato. Take one book (Johansen) and the large red notebook into Causeway, the laptop too heavy.

Asked Bill Liktor at his Sitdown Tragedies blog to give credit to my use of diagrams as the “objective” source if his, where my understanding is that you cite when the previous work has or could have been a source “objectively”. No reply. I really hate having had to make this request but I did discuss “a picture is worth a thousand words”, the relation of Kant to art, etc last summer and would appreciate the acknowledgement. But my picture is sloppy and may not have been seen by Liktor…who may not be replying to the thread because of my demand for a cite…quite possibly disturbing Internet crap to him.

I used another type of “art”, the sentence diagram, to discover something interesting about Kant’s complexity of style in doing just a partial diagram of “the whopper”, an enormous 180 word sentence on p 613 of the Guyer/Moore translation.

But there is a real issue raised. Sensation to concept can go to multiple concepts at the same level or thru a series of lower then higher level concepts, and is this part of what Kant called the empirical. I think it must be, with the final concept (possibly a logical expression with more than one part such as “clown(x) & evil(x)”) emerging into the timeless/spaceless world of phenomena as a final step.

Need then to redraw last June’s “evil clown” diagram to show this.

Same deal as at Coursera where I’d waste time with peer review to get a piece of meaningless paper. Same instinct as of old (1971) to leave humanities with all its BS, for computer science or math, where you can be right if you are right without a lot of BS.

All is vanity. Do I just want to be recognized as right? I am old, time must have a stop: after many a summer dies the swan.

20 Aug 2013: Triumph, Disaster, Triumph

Posted in Uncategorized with tags , , , , , on August 20, 2013 by spinoza1111

IF you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat these two impostors just the same …

– Kipling

Post Blog 19th August – a Great Day and then Disaster

…an expedition with my main British mate to resolve issues with HSBC and visit IFC, with me in a wheelchair.

Snagged Lindt choc bars at the divine levels of 70% and 85%, where the bitterness of the 85% cacao solids added creates a delayed release of chocolate’s powerful pure flavor AFTER the bitterness, like a fine wine or polyphonic music:

–Flavor release 1————–
…. +–Flavor release 2————–

And…no pain whatsoever by way of a strange law: spending time in public with people at least as smart as you, is a marvelous analgesic.

But first…yesterday’s most incredible development: I was waiting in the cab queue at Queen Mary, standing temporarily as my wheelchair was loaded into the boot of the cab, and I found myself, without any pain, executing dance moves. I was thrilled and immediately resolved to experiment with a few more in my next workout, gradually increasing them as is needed and as would be possible.

Well, of course, that’s just not on now owing to disaster at end of day 19 August. For as I got ready for bed, my rib started to pound with pain. I’d probably banged it in a fall on the 17th, running for the can. Or it may be, frighteningly enough, a manifestation of metastasis to bone, a feature of prostate cancer. As I crawled into bed, minutes before so smug, I could hardly draw breath.

“I that in heill was and in gladnes
Am trublit now with great sicness
And feblit wi’ infairmitee!
Timor mortis conturbat me.

William Dunbar, Lament for the Makarys

I was given morphine (Fentanyl synthe-morphine) and like any person in pain, from the drummer boy lying on the field of Saratoga or Waterloo to a rich lawyer whae helpis no conclusionis slee my “study” was reduced to what I could do to stop, or endure, the pain. Thinking and feeling hard I realized that I needed to get the pain under the threshold set by my subjective pain (10/10) to have a chance of sleeping (and thus eliminating or reducing the pain) and to do THIS, I needed to … reduce my breathing.

To do THIS, I needed to reduce my activity so, no pounding on the pillow in agony and no picturesque sobbing and grimacing.

Relax in order to focus all energy on the breath.

Which worked after a while. And I slept, a gift, until morning.

When I awoke just before congee of course no workout was “on” and grimly the pain was the same. I struggled thru breakfast.

But…amazingly not only have I had no hip (cancer) pain all day as if my Hip Devil was deferring to my chest devil as a better tormenter than he…that in fact the pain was in the mind, forming one of Adorno’s strange constellations (“Dream Notes”) in the night sky of my illness to signal me that intelligence was behind my pain…perhaps, my intelligence.

The chest pain was minimal by early afternoon and all the above was me pitching a fit, or, more likely, thinking hard under pressure and finding solutions, or most likely, thinking hard under pressure, finding solutions…

…and, of course, pitching a fit.

Even tho the above was pretty much a false alarm…

with this new pain I was back at square one, searching for the limits of my new world like a man in a dark chamber who probes the shape of the wall, like Kant transcendentally exploring the limits of sense and reason in the dance of pure reason.

Kant was trying to discover how the dance of reason can take place. Imagine a room with shapes in black curtains, protruding from the wall:

How can the dance of darkness and pain take place?

How did the Irish Dancer dance in the holds of ships escaping the famine?

Imagine trying literally and figuratively to dance in the space provided by pain without passion and without hatred, for

“La mission est sacrée, tu l’exécutes jusqu’au bout et si besoin, en opérations, au péril de ta vie.”

“Au combat, tu agis sans passion et sans haine, tu respectes les ennemis vaincus, tu n’abandonnes jamais ni tes morts, ni tes blessés, ni tes armes.”

Articles 6 and 7 of the vow of the French Foreign Legion enhanced with my poetic feu de joie et l’honneur which I write “drawing my breath in pain” as Hamlet admonished Horatio, for indeed it is honorable to do so when recounting tales of honour, contes de l’HONNEUR:

Vow, of the Legionnaire of the Legion of the Endurance of Pain

Legionnaire, remember, the mission is sacred
Carried out to the bitter end, without hatred!
Carried out with utmost respect for the vanquish’d
As YOU would be treated as you would have wish’d
In storm of stress you keep your shit wired together
Keeping your weapons clean in fine and foul weather!
Abandon not your dead nor your wounded nor your arms
In the name of bright Honour, even in defeat, risking all harms.
And in victory never may you succumb to cowardice’s charms:
Abusing prisoners, or capering like an ape
And above all no violence against women. Rape
Is a coward’s act
You will be held fast to this pact.
Here, finally, is our most treasured possession as Legionnaires:
The leather strip we bite upon
When wounded so as not to betray our mates or our position.

Threnody Français

La France est ton Pere, la Legion c’est ton mere:
Vous est nous heros vous est nous enfants plus cher
Faire vous la combat au l’outrance comme l’audace
Et l’audace et toujour l’audace!
Et l’honneur brilliant, comme le Soleil
Qui grace votre armoire de la noir hey hey hey.

Edward G. Nilges 20 Aug 2013: Copyright 2013 by Edward G. Nilges: Moral rights asserted.

AND…lest there be any smart remarks…this is a matter of life and death and if I have to write poetry to stay alive then by GOD I shall.

No pain evening of the 20th.

“For Thou didst not leave his soul in hell, nor didst Thou suffer Thy holy one to see corruption.”

6 Aug 2013: work out

Posted in Uncategorized with tags , , , on August 6, 2013 by spinoza1111


Pain not so bad from “Sciatica, Pennsylvania”, my name for its centre on the top-middle of my left hip, down to left heel and foot, as I did 50 steps (25 on non-problematic right leg, 25 on problematic right foot and leg).

The problematic right foot droops at a 20 degree angle from the expected angle and has since the beginning of this problem.

Did other light exercises, lying down to relieve the pain of the main event, the 50 leg exercises to fill out a 20 minute workout at 5:30 AM, first thing. Will be doing both physio (20 minutes rackety row, possibly changed as of yesterday, where every five I must fully extend both legs) and osteo (so far exceedingly easy and gentle stretches focusing on the problem leg and its mate the right leg).

Feel good, light, bearable pain. Hope that gradually increasing the motility of the problematic left foot will enhance mood without unbearable pain. A real “Scylla and Charybdis.” Oooh but there’s a stab of pain deep in the butt and a ring of fire around my ankle which I think is “referred” nerve pain. The butt pain would be continuous, and would have to be borne as would the stab of pain. Heck, in the wilderness the no-see-ums of the Cascade Mountains make you jump…old Outward Bound joke…a skydiver forgets his parachute…he’s heading down…he sees another guy heading at the same rate up…he yells “no parachute!”…guy going up yells “no see-um!”.


Reading unexpectedly interesting essay on the “Transcendental Doctrine of Method” which despite its heavy, echt Deutsche Pedant title is unexpectedly interesting, since it distills the essence of “transcendental” logic and it’s an interesting challenge to see if it can be reduced to formal logic:

(P) We enjoy (?) experience of kind K (?) => condition C obtains

More on this in Future posts.

28 July 2018: De Plane!

Posted in Uncategorized with tags , , , on July 28, 2013 by spinoza1111

Pain. Pain. Pain.

“De Pain, Boss!”

Still in some pain as I write three hours later: 20 minute workout first thing at 6:00 AM: very painful: 10/10 at times. Up from yesterday and day before.

Although lying flat does prevent night pain, I was in 5/10 pain on arising and had to punch thru 100 lowrise steps, a walk and 200 supine reps with weights. Inadvertent moves then caused screaming unless I focused on the need to keep quiet and take the pain during early morning workouts to let my homeys have their own pain-free sleep at this time when, in Horatio’s words,

No planets strike,
No fairy takes, nor witch hath power to charm,
So hallow’d and so gracious is the time.

– Shakespeare, Hamlet

Loading up on painkiller even as I write, but troubled and worried in mind for this could be a permanent change. Down we go unless I trust in Thee.

Still plan to workout, thru the pain but this commitment may not be kept if nthis pain increases, which would indicate that my compulsive working out may be the cause of this pain, and, possibly, much worse.

Evening 28 July note: for this week, do no step workouts. Walking and supine dance with or without weights OK for typical durations of 20, 30, 30+ minutes; will get leg workouts from the Rackety Rower in Physio.

Keeping Computers Alive (with No Money From a Hospital Bed)

Nick the Brain has found that my Black Screen of Death on my MacAir, which has me using a Powerbook, was caused by a dying fan. Not good, because given the way a Mac Air depends on cool air (because its electronics are so powerful and packed in a small space in a way unprecedented in the Mac world), not only the Fan but also the system, depending on cool air flow patterns from the Fan, must shut down unexpectedly to avoid a Kentucky Fried Computer. This only appears to be a software problem but it’s a hardware feature which overrides software.

In addition, Nick the Brain points out that by dropping and cracking my Mac Air I create air holes and apertures which the power engineers could not anticipate. You’d think the holes would consistently cool the computer but as I learned, years ago, in my Windows certification class, they will generally HEAT the computer (whether by way of a crack or removing a panel on a desktop running Windows) since the air flow on either an old Windows or new MacAir system was designed to be OPTIMAL…therefore almost any change will HEAT the computer.

It’s just logic, not Weird Science: if airflow is as near to the theoretical best B such that airflow is B* (B*<B), the chance of accidentally changing your airflow, by dropping your computer, for the better and making the actual airflow A optimal such that B*<A<=B will be zero. Since A can NEVER exceed B by definition A will always be less than B*…worse than any airflow improvement obtained by dropping the system like a stupid idiot.

The problem HERE is that I drop computers, like unto a stupid idiot. I do so more frequently than the average end user because my natural clumsiness which was learned behavior back in the day is reinforced by the crippling effect of my cancer.

So now my resources for communicating with the world consist of a PowerBook 13 inch system with a cracked screen and a Mac Air that may be fried. In addition there's an excellent, and well-supported, Windows system which I can use for emergencies in the common room.

I could break into savings to get an HP Mini running Windows and .Net (native, not mono) or another MacAir but at this time I think it far more prudent to hack around and put up with problems for you learn more from such hacking and "with putting up".

But but … this returns me to my role of "the only truly effective computer user in the room" unless Nick Berriff (the Brain) is here, and this means I have to devote blocks of time to learning the latest "best designs" of idiots, hacks and corporate drones who don't give a s*t…unlike me or Nick. But I would rather read Kant.

Oh well.

Kant Study

Includes significant updates added 28 July 2018

Finished Michelle Grier on “The Ideal of Pure Reason”, primarily a discussion of the ontological proof method in general. Although Kant famously rejected the equivocation on properties and “existence” and other prerequisites to having properties he did believe that objects in the world could have a perfection as it were of properties and tried in the Ideal to make use of this.

To determine (or describe) a thing completely would seem to require that we know all possible positive predicates of that thing and have a list, say (A…Z, A0…Z0, … Az…Zz) of applicable predicates handy. Each NEGATIVE predicate (where, for example, “bad” is ~good or “male” is ~female in the sort of taxonomy we’d look for at this point) can be removed.

Of course, Kant’s optimism on this is rather touching. We can discover new predicates and in other cases we can find predicates meaningless as applied to certain objects. But proceeding as if these wrinkles were ironed-over…

…there exists a perfect being PB such that A(PB) & B(PB) & C(PB) & … Zz(PB) qed.

For example, if we can in such a facile manner prove the existence of the perfect being we also can prove using the same method, the existence of the Perfect Being’s “foil”, PBF, let’s say the Devil, simply by writing (~A(PBF) & ~B(PBF) & … & ~Zz(PBF).

And, if God doesn’t exist, and the same set of properties applies to God and the Devil in reverse, then the Devil doesn’t exist: God exists if and only if the devil exists: you can prove God’s existence by proving the Devil’s existence: “Imagine there’s no heaven”. Because you can in this world enumerate all properties of God, and because its logic is consistently two-valued, questions are easily answered in favor of God.

Complexity of thought is discouraged in universities which increasingly find it difficult to teach philosophy as opposed to “values and ethics” classes with a conservative slant, “critical thinking” with a nice leftist bias exactly where it is needed, or a neutral comparative religion class which isn’t philoophy.

However, we should leave off attacking modern philosophical pedagogy and take a look at our reasoning from overly facile lists of attributes to big results. At this point, we’ve been reduced to conjuror’s tricks which assume almost that beings can be brought into existence by writing or saying certain Kabbalah-like things but that is nonsense. What we’ve done is shown the backward-looking nature of Kant’s thought in addition to its forward looking nature when he, like we, reifies properties; traditional grammar did this as a matter of course since no need was seen for dividing things and properties when both were nouns in most languaged.

However, Kant’s thought is the ground of the very developments in modern logic which he would probably have found most useful, but which defy him here, including the very idea that our ordinary language including the ordinary mathematical notation we use in the spot (without fear that our calculus has occult, Kabbalistic power).

Both traditional and modern logic can treat properties as things and thereby making lists of properties including the excellencies of a Perfect Being. But modern logic can discover contradictory and nonsense properties (such as “shaves all men that do not shave themselves”) that much better.

In a sort of “hack” of symbolic logic notation I can “say” things that look meaningful such as this paraphrase of “some properties are excellencies but not all”.

(Ex)[isProperty(x) && isAnExcellency(x)] && (Ey)[isProperty(x) && ~isAnExcellency(x)]

These amusing parlor games raise issues. For example, the above implies that the world has two objects, one of which is an ordinary object and the other a property.

Now, suppose we have implemented the above notation as a “programming language” (which I ask you not to do for your own sanity). If its world data base contains fewer than two objects then we crash, or at best “there is a bug”. There may also be problems if there is object in the world which is an “excellency”.

I am not saying there are problems. I am saying that in my experience, the problem of “data with no value” was a philosophical and sociological education in itself.

“Data with no value” occurs in outlier and deviant cases and therefore deserves the most attention in social research and computing while getting the least, as does data that doesn’t fit a reified framework (male or female).

If the And operator is not implemented lazily such that in A && B, the “lazy” evaluator does NOT evaluate B when A implies that such evaluation may be a problem, then we crash. Computing here overrides the social need.

But because I have needed so much painkiller booster today, I am getting quite fuzzy and unequal to digital philosophy. I shall return to this subject tomorrow (Monday, China dating, 29 July 2013 starting around 0900, and going to 0100 (1:00 AM approximately USA).

I have just sleepily plugged this Kant Study in. I am so unutterably sleepy that it would be best to check it out tomorrow. My prose must flow between male and female polarities … zzz … huh wuzzat. I shall be well rested tomorrow, and won’t have to torment myself, doing mega step aerobics. Kant students, including graduate students studying Kant, are asked to comment on my sanity based on their knowledge of Kant, helping me to detect whether I’m going off the rails. When thanks to the professionalism and scholarship of the late ED Klemke at Roosevelt University in 1970, and that of his mentor Henry Veatch at Northwestern, we all had the extraordinary privilege of reading the complete Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus I had the privilege, perhaps the last time in the West, of reading a complete text and my purpose is to recreate what such close reading is like.

Change Record

1 Aug 2013 Correction to post date. [Change records are important here because we’re possibly documenting a Singularity here. “28 Feb 2028”?? Uh, NO, I cannot travel in time! Make it 28 July 2018, something like that.]’